let me preface this by saying that I don't suffer fools gladly. Now, that isn't to say that I haven't done some foolish stuff in my life, or that any run of the mill foolishness sends me over the edge, but I have a line. If you cross the line into extreme stupidity, I don't tend to have much tolerance for it.
Let me also state that I am a misanthrope by trade (well I haven't found a way to get paid for it yet, but I'm working on it.) and so I am not filled with happy go lucky sentiments toward humanity as a whole. In fact, it is a well known fact that I have a rather sadistic sense of humor, and am reknowned in certain parts of the country for my elaborate practical jokes.
Well, I was on an animation list up until recently. Now, there have been a lot of factors which has made me decide that I don't want to go into that field, and they are almost entirely based on the people who inhabit the field (more on this later) and I was starting to think that perhaps I should unsub from this list. I was thinking about this when the listserv had a problem that was causing multiples to be sent of any posts that went through. I, foolishly, still did not unsub. I simply hadn't got around to it yet. (I'm on dial up right now, so I spend a lot less time online.)
Then, a couple days passed, the multiples were still being sent. I attempted to download my mail. It took a very long time because a fellow, who had been chastised for sending attachments to the list the week before, sent an .avi file of some computer animation he had done. In the email he whined about how much harder it was to do animation on computers than in the old school style (more on that little subject later, too.) Well, multiples were sent out of his already huge post. Seventeen to be exact. It took me hours to get my mail, when I did, all my other mail had bounced back because this guy's files clogged up my mailbox.
I asked Rob what kind of idiot would send a file of that magnitude to a list with a no attachment policy when it was obvious to the most casual observer that any post would be sent out in multiples. He was as baffled by this as I was. (although less shocked, I still have too much faith in mankind.)
Well, at this point I felt the need to vent. I realized I was indeed in the presence of someone who was in good need of bashing, as simple reprimands obviously did no good. And so, gleefully, I engaged this fellow in a flame war. This is what followed:
me
So just curious:
You know that the mail server has been barfing up multiple copies of posts. Why on earth would you send a huge attachment, knowing this? I mean, all due respect, but are you retarded? No, really, I'm just curious, because...well...only a retard would send out a huge file to a mailing list knowing there was a good chance it would send ten copies of it.
Incidentally, I notice in your post you complain about how much "harder" animation is on a computer. Now, that's a whole other rant I'm not going to get into, but all I have to say on the matter is this: if you find it that difficult, maybe you should get rid of your computer...it seems you aren't ready for it.
I felt smug. I felt vindicated. I got a damned good laugh out of the whole thing cause, let's face it, it's pretty fucking funny. Of course, David Leach (I love it when people fit their last names) failed to see the humor in this. In fact, when he responded to me, he felt fit to post his rebuttal in my guestbook. Now, I found this delightfully funny. He didn't include my post in his response, which gives the impression of someone being a raving lunatic. Even more funny was that he apparently thought he was really sticking it to me. Heh, he obviously hasn't taken the time to read the diary archives.
This was his response.
Why thank you for your kind and thoughtful email. Allow me to answer in kind.
1. I DID NOT KNOW THAT THE MAIL SERVER WAS 'BARFING UP MULTIPLE COPIES etc etc' otherwise I wouldn't have sent them out in the first place, or are you waaaaay too stupid to realise this?
2. With regards the size of the attachment, other people I'd sent it too had no problem with it. Maybe it's just you?
3. What a fantastic piece of advice you give though, regarding just giving up because it's too hard. Boy, I bet that really helped you out all through your career. Finding things hard is part of the learning curve, isn't it? Or have you never got that far with anything? Funnily enough I was comparing the difference between drawn and computer animation, which I find difficult.
With all due respect, are you deliberately trying to be obnoxious and rude or is it because you don't know any better, just curious?
But jeez thanks for your comments, I look forward to receiving many many more.
You all go an' have yourself a nice day now, ya hear.
I was both amused and disappointed. Of course, I had touched a nerve, and his responses were pretty entertaining, but he obviously was not too skilled at this sort of thing. All he did was turn my arguments back on me. A feeble technique, doing nothing to really get the better of me. See, when I have a flame war two things usually happen: either a person proves themselves as an equal: they stand up to my accusations, tell me I'm full of shit and why. I usually have a short lived argument, which works itself out, and I have a basic respect for the person's intellect. Or, they dig themselves into a deeper and deeper hole, and get so upset that they cease to be rational. I could already tell this was going to happen. Oh well. It makes for good comedy at least.
So I came back at him:
on 4/26/01 4:59 AM, David Leach at davidleach@codemasters.com wrote:
"1. I DID NOT KNOW THAT THE MAIL SERVER WAS 'BARFING UP MULTIPLE COPIES etc etc' otherwise I wouldn't have sent them out in the first place, or are you waaaaay too stupid to realise this?"
Ahh you are a retard then, I see. Because I noticed that this was happening to everybody's posts, it has been discussed on the list about the fact that multiples are being sent out, and anyone with an iota of perception would have seen it.
"2. With regards the size of the attachment, other people I'd sent it too had no problem with it. Maybe it's just you?"
Well no it's not me. It is an .avi file. That means it is not compressed. That means it is huge and should not be sent out on a mailing list.
Additionally, I saw other people on the list complain about your file and you were chastised for posting files just a couple of days ago. Besides, it is considered very poor form to post files of any kind to a mailing list (let alone one that size).
3. What a fantastic piece of advice you give though, regarding just giving up because it's too hard. Boy, I bet that really helped you out all through your career. Finding things hard is part of the learning curve, isn't it? Or have you never got that far with anything?
No, not giving up because it's too hard. Giving up because you, personally, are too stupid to use computers. This has been demonstrated by your recent actions. I consider computers to be relatively easy things,that anyone with the comprehension level of a twelve year old can grok. But since you don't seem to have that, it would be doing the world a favor if you were never allowed to get within a hundred feet of one.
"Funnily enough I was comparing the difference between drawn and computer animation, which I find difficult.
Ahh, taking that broad leap into the eighties, are we?
"With all due respect, are you deliberately trying to be obnoxious and rude or is it because you don't know any better, just curious?"
I was deliberately being rude because you did something inhumanly stupid. I have never, in my life, seen someone so inept at what would be basic common sense. You fucked up, I gave you grief about it. Don't like it? Don't make yourself a target.
Okay this was getting fun. The next day, I woke up around 10 AM, got my morning cup of coffee and read his response:
Amy,
How lovely to hear from you again.
Thank you for taking the time to go through my email line by line.
"Ahh you are a retard then, I see. Because I noticed that this was happening
to everybody's posts, it has been discussed on the list about the fact that
multiples are being sent out, and anyone with an iota of perception would
have seen it."
A good point you raise about the multiple emails, except I've only been a member of this so-called forum group for less than a week and although I had indeed seen that I was getting multiple copies of the same email I hadn't made the link that there was a problem. Sorry you are right, perhaps I should have been a little more perceptive. But why do you feel the need to be so utterly rude to someone you don't know, how dare you bandy around words like 'retard'? Don't you realise that this is offensive, do you even know what it even means? Or do you get some pleasure from being so miserable and offensive? By the way these were rhetorical questions as I can already guess your answers.
"Well no it's not me. It is an .avi file. That means it is not compressed.
That means it is huge and should not be sent out on a mailing list.
Additionally, I saw other people on the list complain about your file and
you were chastised for posting files just a couple of days ago. Besides, it
is considered very poor form to post files of any kind to a mailing list
(let alone one that size). "
I have been using a computer to animate for only 3 months - this follows a post graduate animation course where I studied 2-D animation, not computer animation. Before this I was a professional cartoonist, writer and comic book editor. I wrote and drew comics for a living, when I used a computer it wasn't linked up to the web. Therefore my experiences of the web were limited to a snatched half hour at a cyber cafe somewhere where I'd email my friends and search for information, I was never in the position to post stuff, nor did I know how to. Yes I was 'chastised' for posting an avi, something for which I quickly apologised for. It was a genuine mistake, one I won't make again and no I didn't know it was bad form to post it, like I say I'm new to this. Did you think of emailing an abusive email to the server company who actually sent you Avi three times? Or the host of the forum to complain? No you choose to email me, that's really dealing with the problem in a grown up way, isn't it?
When I joined this animation forum, I wanted to talk to other animators for some creative feedback, why did you join? Was it to make friends with your witty banter or do you have something actually creative to contribute? Once again I was making a rhetorical question as I can already guess your answer.
"No, not giving up because it's too hard. Giving up because you, personally,
are too stupid to use computers. This has been demonstrated by your recent
actions. I consider computers to be relatively easy things, that anyone with
the comprehension level of a twelve year old can grok. But since you don't
seem to have that, it would be doing the world a favor if you were never
allowed to get within a hundred feet of one.
Listen to what you're actually saying. Congratulations if you think computers are relatively easy to use. I'm learning how to animate with a 3-D package for the first time from a manual - on the job - with no input from a teacher, I have to learn from my mistakes and I'm going to make mistakes, so what, it isn't the end of the world. Where I agree with you that the actual animation part is relatively easy, learning the interface is the hard part, dealing with function curves, explicit translations, different timing speeds etc and learning how to translate my drawn animation skills for use on a computer.
"Ahh, taking that broad leap into the eighties, are we?"
If you're going to be sarcastic, at least try and be intelligent about it, or at the very least witty. You might very well feel you're taking a broad leap into the 80's and judging from your comic strip work you certainly are! A joyous return to angst-ridden, introspective, substandard-Raw style of 'fine-art' comics that were so relevant back in the 80's. Well done, you've got that really nailed down tight.
"I was deliberately being rude because you did something inhumanly stupid. I
have never, in my life, seen someone so inept at what would be basic common
sense. You fucked up, I gave you grief about it. Don't like it? Don't make
yourself a target."
I'm not a target. And be honest with yourself if you really can, do you seriously consider my actions to be 'inhumanly stupid'? Take a moment to listen to what you're saying. I haven't fucked up, I don't need to feel important by insulting a perfect stranger over a couple of thousand miles away. Maybe it's because I don't seem to have nearly as many emotional issues to deal with as you, but I like to deal with people face to face. I would never dream of being as rude as you have been to a perfect stranger. What actually have you achieved with your behaviour? Do you now feel superior because you can use a computer better than I can?
Congratulations.
Listen, if you seriously want to enter into a proper dialogue about art, comics, animation and your favourite, computers, by all means reply. Otherwise could you do me a favour and just fuck off.
Oh wow. This guy was really giving me a lot to work with.
Apparently, he had a deep sensitivity to the term "retard". I'm not sure if it's because he was just incredibly politically correct or if he had been called that a lot as a kid, but I knew I had to exploit this. It's like the kid in school that gets teased and cries "stop picking on me! Why are you picking on me?" and never figures out why they get picked on even more.
So, instead of waking up to sitcoms on A & E, I wrote him back:
on 4/27/01 4:51 AM, David Leach at davidleach@codemasters.com wrote:
"How lovely to hear from you again."
Always glad to oblige the masochistic, sure.
"Thank you for taking the time to go through my email line by line."
Sure, you wrote it line by line. That's the general accepted mailing list form.
"A good point you raise about the multiple emails, except I've only been a member of this so-called forum group for less than a week and although I had indeed seen that I was getting multiple copies of the same email I hadn't made the link that there was a problem.
Um...okay, see, it's comments like that which invite you to have your intelligence questioned. The problem had gone on for a few days. The moderator had posted about it. Either you weren't reading your mail or your logical skills are *seriously* impaired. It's the fact that you chose to post a huge file once, after having already been chastised once for posting attachments to the list, which was a size that anyone who is not on a network connection could not handle. The fact that you didn't even *consider* the possibility (which you would have known if you'd bothered to read your mail.) was stupid, self centered and careless.
"Sorry you are right, perhaps I should have been a little more perceptive. But why do you feel the need to be so utterly rude to someone you don't know, how dare you bandy around words like 'retard'?"
Why do I feel the need? Well, aside from having it take me all morning to get my mail and causing all mail that came after your post bounce back because your multiple .avi files caused my account to go well over the limit, was the fact that it was such an incredibly, inconceivably stupid thing to do.
"Don't you realise that this is offensive, do you even know what it even
means? Or do you get some pleasure from being so miserable and offensive? By the way these were rhetorical questions as I can already guess your answers."
Of course I realize how offensive it is, Einstein. Why do you think I said it? Do you realize how offensive your complete and utter ignorance is?
"I have been using a computer to animate for only 3 months - this follows a post graduate animation course where I studied 2-D animation, not computer animation."
This was a recent course? Doesn't logic dictate that if you wanted to brush up on your animation skills that you should have taken something that gave more of a hands on computer training?
Before this I was a professional cartoonist, writer and comic book editor. I wrote and drew comics for a living, when I used a computer it wasn't linked up to the web. Therefore my experiences of the web were limited to a snatched half hour at a cyber cafe somewhere where I'd email my friends and search for information, I was never in the position to post stuff, nor did I know how to.
Then why didn't you keep your damned mouth shut until you learned the ways of the net and mailing lists? That's also the etiquette.
"Yes I was 'chastised' for posting an avi, something for which I quickly apologised for. It was a genuine mistake, one I won't make again and no I didn't know it was bad form to post it, like I say I'm new to this."
No, you posted an attachment. You got chastised for it. You posted another one three or four days later. Multiples were sent out of this one.
"Did you think of emailing an abusive email to the server company who actually sent you Avi three times? Or the host of the forum to complain? No you choose to email me, that's really dealing with the problem in a grown up way, isn't it? "
Um...why on earth would I mail the server? You sent the attachment. You picked the file, attached it and asked everyone to review it. You did it, not the server. Same with the moderator, who has asked you not to. And for the record, I got it seventeen times, not three.
"When I joined this animation forum, I wanted to talk to other animators for some creative feedback, why did you join? Was it to make friends with your witty banter or do you have something actually creative to contribute? Once again I was making a rhetorical question as I can already guess your answer."
Oh I fully joined to discuss animation with folks. The problem is, I naively assumed a certain level of intelligence as well as assuming that everyone on the list had the common sense of a monkey. I am on about 12 different mailing lists. I have been online since '98. In that time I have never met anyone as incomprehensibly stupid, whiny and self indulgent as yourself. Not only do you not ask questions if you don't know policy, and blatantly ignore the policy when explained to you, but you don't even want to take responsibilities for your own fuck ups. It's always you didn't know any better, or you shouldn't be the one to get shit when you do these stupid things, you suggest taking it up with the list moderator for having the list, not you for having posted it. Learn some fucking responsibility, you ingrate.
"Listen to what you're actually saying. Congratulations if you think computers are relatively easy to use.
They are, if you take the time to learn them and don't get stuck on the fact that it's a new technology. My twelve year old niece got her first computer less than a year ago and is already a whiz on the thing.
"I'm learning how to animate with a 3-D package for the first time from a manual - on the job - with no input from a teacher, I have to learn from my >mistakes and I'm going to make mistakes, so what, it isn't the end of the world."
Well, good, learn on the job. It's better that way than school, anyhow. Considering the pay differential between someone working in academics and someone working in the field, anyone who really knows their shit will be in the field.
"If you're going to be sarcastic, at least try and be intelligent about it, or at the very least witty. You might very well feel you're taking a broad leap into the 80's and judging from your comic strip work you certainly are! A joyous return to angst-ridden, introspective, substandard-Raw style of 'fine-art' comics that were so relevant back in the 80's. Well done, you've got that really nailed down tight."
Hmm, I don't have my comic book online. I have some rough sketches that I put up awhile back, which never even made it into the final product. (Though MTV seemed to like it well enough when they had me work on one of their projects.) I have a seperate webpage for my comic book. The page that you saw hasn't had any part except the online diary updated in a very long time. I also have some stop motion work and flash work that I haven't gotten around to putting up, due to having been insanely busy moving out of state. (among other things.)
"I'm not a target."
Heh, that's a good one.
"And be honest with yourself if you really can, do you seriously consider my actions to be 'inhumanly stupid'?"
Hmm. Let me think. Yup, I do.
"Take a moment to listen to what you're saying. I haven't fucked up, I don't need to feel important by insulting a perfect stranger over a couple of thousand miles away.
Why? Because it's funny as hell. Come on, tell me you wouldn't laugh if it weren't you.
"Maybe it's because I don't seem to have nearly as many emotional issues to deal with as you, but I like to deal with people face to face."
Heh, um okay. Well maybe you don't. After all, where there's no sense, there's no feeling. I like dealing with intelligent people of substance face to face.
I would never dream of being as rude as you have been to a perfect stranger. What actually have you achieved with your behaviour?
Oh well. What the hell does you being a stranger have to do with it? If you were at a party at my house, or if I was sitting and talking to you at the bar, and you said something as stupid as you're saying now, I would say the exact same thing. What have I acheieved? Well, aside from getting the initial venting, when it took three hours to get the mail that normally takes all of thirty seconds, it has given me entertainment, fodder for my webpage, things like that.
"Do you now feel superior because you can use a computer better than I can?"
No, actually I feel sad. I feel sad to realize that a human can be as incredibly and blatantly ignorant as you. Everyone was new to computers at one point, and I have seen many newbies over the past few years, but I have never had the misfortune to see someone as ignorant as yourself.
"Listen, if you seriously want to enter into a proper dialogue about art, comics, animation and your favourite, computers, by all means reply. Otherwise could you do me a favour and just fuck off."
Is that your way of saying "I want to make this really long winded rebuttal but I'm scared of what she might say back to me?" Don't say it if you can't stand by it.
Listen, I would like nothing more than to have an intelligent conversation with you, but you need to say something intelligent first.
Well, after I sent this, I left the house and went through the next phase in the interview process of a job I'm trying to get. I came back and checked my mail. He had responded quickly this time.
As I have said over and over again.
I posted one AVI, not 17.
I was chastised, I took responsibility and apologised.
I've tried to explain these circumstances to you but you are too rude, arrogant, selfish and petty to listen, so emnamoured are you by your own whiney simmpering voice.
Your goading won't work, you need to move on in your life now. I can't see any point in continuing to talk to you so could you do me a favour and
just fuck off.
Now, this was as funny as it was baffling. He seemed to know that I was poking him with a stick, but he seemed to lack the vital cog to not make himself a target. My policy on flame wars is that I stop when I get bored or when they stop responding. This sort of thing is a hobby of mine, done only on occasion to a deserving target. Well, I was not bored yet. And he was still responding. So I came back at him:
Heh. Well damn, I guess you really are a tard, Being that the simplest logical points escape you. Goading doesn't work? Damn could have fooled me. This is better than television. Don't want to hear what I have to say to you? Quit replying.
There.
Maybe he'll write back, maybe he won't. I'll wait and see. But, above all else, it gave me the chance to write up one of my flame war reviews in here. It's been awhile since I've done that.