"Sorry, just drunk and ranting about how stupid goths are.... I need to
occasionally o.k.?

Ok, so goths 1600 years ago:

Goths at this time were distinguished by their round shields, their short
swords, and their obedience toward their kings.

goths today:

Identified by their black uniforms, metal bits, and pvc and complete
obedience to whomever is consider cool in the "scene".

I can see a correlation there.

This is the conclusion that I have come to.
There are 2 really good kinds of "dark". The first being the truly
terrifying bizarre and maddening, the face your fears, walk through
madness, nonsequitor sequitor unpleasantness. The stuff that makes the
strong uncomfortable, and the weak queasy. The second being the horror show
darkness, that schlock fun macabre stuff of B-Movies.

Goth is something else entirely. Its an inane blathering of dark, darkness
in its lamest most impotent form. Watered down by foolish conformity, and
over quoting the most dim romantic novelists, the only thing disturbing
about it is the mass ignorance and outright mob mentality of its adherents,
the only thing tragically funny about it is the mass ignorance and outright
mob mentality of its adherents, and there's only so much ignorance and mob
mentality one can take. I mean, I can get that anywhere so why would I seek
it out if it only boils down to Abercrombie & Fitch vs. PVC & bondage
collars anyway?

Completely ludicrous.

You know, you have to have depth to make things worthwhile, and depth, is
something that is sorely lacking in said community.

Its funny, because I'm sitting here thinking of any exceptions that I have
to make to the above statements, and I can't think of any because anyone
that I like/respect/otherwise consider worthwhile knows this, and has
actually these very sentiments some form at some point in time, even if
they are at times, "gothy".

Muse on the fact, if you will, for a moment how intellectually and
creatively bankrupt the whole thing is. How vapid and shallow, how much
like a Propaganda magazine video this whole thing is.

I shudder."

This of course was a typical rant by Rob. He doesn't always post it, but I have heard many such rants. It's just one of the many reasons why I love him. Well, this fellow that got nicknamed Timmy the Goth (tm) [courtesy of a listmember from Tucson, Mike Shack] did not take kindly whatsoever to this "goth bashing." and came back with the following post:

"> Sorry, just drunk and ranting about how stupid goths are.... I need to
> occasionally o.k.?

Thanks. We love you too.

> You know, you have to have depth to make things worthwhile, and depth, is
> something that is sorely lacking in said community.

Thanks again.

You know, I'm truly biting back angry words here. I'd appreciate it if you'd
come to a stopping point sometime soon."

I responded to him explaining this would not happen. The list was an open forum, and Rob (and anyone else) was more than welcome to express themselves. So Timmy came back with:

">> From: Tim McGaughy <teekem@jump.net>
>>
>> Thanks again.
>>
>> You know, I'm truly biting back angry words here. I'd appreciate it if you'd
>> come to a stopping point sometime soon.
>
> Um its not gonna happen. Rob's viewpoints are based on experience he has had
> in numerous scenes. Ranting is more than encouraged on this list and if
> anyone has a problem with it they are more than welcome to post a rebuttal.
> If you have a logical argument to disprove his stance, go for it.

What, prove that I have depth?

Since when am I supposed to prove myself to anyone, just because they've had
a bad day?

How about we turn it around... How about Rob prove to ME that he's worth a
shit, and then maybe I'll consider dealing with his accusations.

I just waded through message after message from people who do understand
what gothic is, yet they seem to think they're experts.

Goth is different things to different people... To some, it's music. And
it's expanded to the point where there's no longer even an objective
punk-offshoot definition of it. To others, it's art. To still others, it's
fashion. It's really degenerated into a loose subjective definition.
 

But the bottom line is that I know goths who crank out music that I like,
who take photos that are neat, who throw pretty fun parties, and who can
keep a job.

I've never seen a goth who was obsessed with poetry and down on life. I'm
sure they're out there, but they're rare enough at least in my circle of
friends, that they are hardly the norm. Most of the goths I know don't look
like something out of Propaganda or Hot Topic, and for the most part they
have oddball taste in music that usually HAPPENS to intersect with the taste
of other goths.
 

So... Just so long as we're justifying our existences... Who the hell is
Rob, and what the hell has he done, other than being an asshole?"

Well this just invited a field day. It was started by me, who was piss drunk when I read the email.

">From: Tim McGaughy <teekem@jump.net>

> What, prove that I have depth?

hmm. You seem to be personalizing this. Is goth the sum of your existence
then?

>
> Since when am I supposed to prove myself to anyone, just because they've had
> a bad day?

Actually he had a very good day. We both had a better weekend then either us
had been able to have in weeks, either as individuals or together.

>
> How about we turn it around... How about Rob prove to ME that he's worth a
> shit, and then maybe I'll consider dealing with his accusations.

Maybe you should deal with your beliefs on the matter instead of a blind
rage. Defend them. Perhaps Rob does not give a rats ass about sacred cows
and does not feel the need to censor them based on who he may or may not
offend. Argue his points, sure, but dont have a hissy fit because--after he
has insulted almost every group in existence--he insulted a group of people
you happen to be a part of.

> I just waded through message after message from people who do understand
> what gothic is, yet they seem to think they're experts.

Who do understand what gothic is yet they seem to feel their experts? I
think you didnt proofread here. Incidentally, everyone who posted has been
very involved with the Chicago scene to some capacity. Rob runs chigoth.
Jason and Juan both have spend large amounts of time both on mailing lists
and in clubs here. All three proved themselves to be intelligent above and
beyond stereotypes, which is why they were invited by me personally to be on
this list. They also know more about music, art, film, philosophy, etcetera
than 95% of the people I meet on a daily basis...so yeah, I consider them to
be experts.
 

> Goth is different things to different people... To some, it's music. And
> it's expanded to the point where there's no longer even an objective
> punk-offshoot definition of it. To others, it's art. To still others, it's
> fashion. It's really degenerated into a loose subjective definition.

And to most it is, yes, image.  There are more people who are concerned with
being goth than being influenced by anything they might get out of goth.
They self consciously sneer at hot topic while all the while fully buying
into the mentality that hot topic represents. They are worse than the ones
that buy into it in their lack of honesty. This has not always been the case
but right now it is the majority. That is worthy of criticism. And anyone
who is eager to think for themselves and be influenced rather than
indoctrinated, cannot help but be frustrated by this.

> But the bottom line is that I know goths who crank out music that I like,
> who take photos that are neat, who throw pretty fun parties, and who can
> keep a job.

Plenty can keep a job...not that it takes originality or personality to hold
down a job. Corporate America is proof of that. As far as music, please
share. Last I heard, you felt most of what came out of Austin was pretty
damned mediocre...so who are these new bands? If you can revive our faith in
the scene, go for it. Give us examples.
 

> I've never seen a goth who was obsessed with poetry and down on life.

Heh You must not know anyone who likes to LARP then. Im envious...be it
Tucson, Austin, Philly or Chicago I've seen them...look no one is knocking
you for being into them. Hell Rob and I spent the night at Neo tonight
around a goth inclined clientele. But no one can deny the bullshit which is
all too pervasive these days.
 

 I'm
> sure they're out there, but they're rare enough at least in my circle of
> friends, that they are hardly the norm. Most of the goths I know don't look
> like something out of Propaganda or Hot Topic, and for the most part they
> have oddball taste in music that usually HAPPENS to intersect with the taste
> of other goths.

Um wow. Atomic must have a *completely* different crowd from when I left two
years ago. Is that true? Incidentally, have the fetish groups ceased the
petty ego fights which used to pervade the scene there? Just curious.
>
>
> So... Just so long as we're justifying our existences... Who the hell is
> Rob, and what the hell has he done, other than being an asshole?

Well, aside from hosting chigoth, freakland, a discordian list, a goth geek
list and the goth girls list...he supported his family while he went to
college full time while working 50-60 hours a week, he now works for the
corporation that owns almost every telecommunications company in the
country; works from home as a hacker for hire, breaking into major
corporations systems and fixing their weaknesses; does various bits of
sketch comedy on the side and spoils me rotten...just to name a few.

-Amy"

Our friend, and monkey advocate extraordinaire, Jason Hyde then came forth with this response:

">Since when am I supposed to prove myself to anyone, just because they've had
>a bad day?

well, i'd say since you started bitching and moaning about rob's post
without providing much in the way of contradictory evidence...
>
>How about we turn it around... How about Rob prove to ME that he's worth a
>shit, and then maybe I'll consider dealing with his accusations.
>

christ, he didn't say any damned thing about you...are you so thoroughly
entrenched in your little subculture that this subculture alone has become
your identity?

>I just waded through message after message from people who do understand
>what gothic is, yet they seem to think they're experts.
>
well, i think i have a thorough understanding in what gothic means in the
classic literary sense, having studied gothic and romantic literature in
college...and i think i have a thorough understanding of the gothic
aesthetic in film, having spent my whole damned life watching them...and
sadly i have a too too thorough understanding of goths based on dealing
with them in clubs and such places...

>Goth is different things to different people... To some, it's music. And
>it's expanded to the point where there's no longer even an objective
>punk-offshoot definition of it. To others, it's art. To still others, it's
>fashion. It's really degenerated into a loose subjective definition.
>
then why get so hissy fitty about it, if it's such a loosely defined
thing...if goth's 'different things to different people' then it's being
crap to me is entirely valid, is it not? and this is not coming from some
baseball cap wearing frat boy either...no, i grew up with 'goth' for want
of a better term, and couldn't wait to get somewhere with a 'scene' as i
was the only person into this in a small town in indiana...then i came to
chicago, spent a couple years going to clubs, found the few people that i
like, dropped out of the clubs and now i lead a happy adult life that's not
reliant on my standing in any music-based scene for my sense of
identity...thank the giant flying robot in the sky...
in my experiences, i have found the people who cling so tightly goth's
starboard bow like so many black-clad barnacles to be immature,
uninvolving, narcissistic, and extremely petty...they haven't grown out of
their high school clique mentality so they just take it into the 'scene'
with them, bickering all the way...
and let's face it, clinging to a subculture is just not good, as it blinds
you to other things that exist outside of said subculture, and you get
people liking crap simply because it's 'goth' or 'industrial' or
'punk'...it's not just goth with me, no, i'm sick of people relying on any
subculture for their identity...i used to be like that (i had an excuse, i
was 18 at the time), but since i stopped caring, i've discovered all type
of wondrous things that i wouldn't have given the time of day to when i was
'goth' (the glory of martin denny being chief among these), and i've
managed to save money that i once would have spent on crap bands because
they fit the category in which i lumped myself...but hey, i still love
bauhaus, i still love the cure, siouxsie, death in june, cocteau twins, joy
division, and most of the things i liked back then (except the afore
mentioned christian death and the sisters of mercy - i have no time for
them anymore)...now, though, i just regard them as good music, not things i
have to like because they're goth...and good music is good music,
regardless of genre...end of story...
>
>But the bottom line is that I know goths who crank out music that I like,
>who take photos that are neat, who throw pretty fun parties, and who can
>keep a job.

and there are goths who make crap music, take pretentious crap photos,
throw unbearable parites, and who cannot keep a job  (not like that's a
hard thing, though)...just like in any other walk of life...start viewing
people as people and not goths, huns, huguenots, punks, ravers, blacks,
whites, yellows, beiges, whatever...
>
>I've never seen a goth who was obsessed with poetry and down on life. I'm
>sure they're out there, but they're rare enough at least in my circle of
>friends, that they are hardly the norm. Most of the goths I know don't look
>like something out of Propaganda or Hot Topic, and for the most part they
>have oddball taste in music that usually HAPPENS to intersect with the taste
>of other goths.
>
i have seen many goths who wrote bad poetry and thought it was
brilliant...hell, the proliferation of bad goth poetry on the internet will
uphold this...

>So... Just so long as we're justifying our existences... Who the hell is
>Rob, and what the hell has he done, other than being an asshole?
>
rob never never asked you to justify your existence, your inability to view
anything outside of your little 'goth' bubble made you take everything
personally...rob's not an asshole, and i don't think any of his posts were
as steeped in assholery as yours...and i'm not going to sit here and sound
off on rob's many accomplishments (amy's done a fine job of that already),
but he is one of those few people i like, and i think i'll leave it at
that..."

This was followed up with a post by Mike Shack, from Tucson. Through my time online, I've come to appreciate Mike's ability for a scathing rebuttal. By this time timmy had unsubbed, which is really quite sad, as it was a rather entertaining post:

"Tim McGaughy wrote:

>
> >> You know, I'm truly biting back angry words here. I'd appreciate it if you'd
> >> come to a stopping point sometime soon.

God save those who face the wrath of Timmy the Goth(TM)!

>
> >
> > Um its not gonna happen. Rob's viewpoints are based on experience he has had
> > in numerous scenes. Ranting is more than encouraged on this list and if
> > anyone has a problem with it they are more than welcome to post a rebuttal.
> > If you have a logical argument to disprove his stance, go for it.
>
> What, prove that I have depth?

That would be nice.

>
> How about we turn it around... How about Rob prove to ME that he's worth a
> shit, and then maybe I'll consider dealing with his accusations.

Well, you're the one bitching and moaning about him putting down your little
'scene'. I didn't see any attack he made directly against you. And I must say, even
never having been part of the "goth scene" here in Tucson, I've seen enough of the
b.s. when I have gone to the clubs and met some of the people to agree with most of
what Rob and Jason had to say about it.

>
> I just waded through message after message from people who do understand
> what gothic is, yet they seem to think they're experts.

Ooh, experts. Like we can get our PhD in Gothdom or something? So tell us, almighty
Timmy, your great wisdom on all things Goth.

>
>
> Goth is different things to different people... To some, it's music. And
> it's expanded to the point where there's no longer even an objective
> punk-offshoot definition of it. To others, it's art. To still others, it's
> fashion. It's really degenerated into a loose subjective definition.
>

So, you're saying that what Rob and Jason were saying was right, since that is what
goth is to those people.

>
> But the bottom line is that I know goths who crank out music that I like,
> who take photos that are neat, who throw pretty fun parties, and who can
> keep a job.

Well, gee, I know far more non-goths who do all of the above *without* all the
gothic pretensions.

>
>
> I've never seen a goth who was obsessed with poetry and down on life.

How long have you been into goth? I'm not even into it and have known several
people in the "scene" who, in your words, were "obsessed with poetry and down on
life" because that was what they were "supposed" to do.

> I'm sure they're out there, but they're rare enough at least in my circle of
> friends, that they are hardly the norm.

Your circle of friends are the entire goth community? If I were to judge people
merely based on my circle of friends, then my entire perspective of people would be
different and probably far less cynical.

> Most of the goths I know don't look like something out of Propaganda or Hot
> Topic,

Most I know do. Come to Tucson and check out the "goth" scene here and tell me they
DON'T look like something out of Hot Topic.

> and for the most part they have oddball taste in music that usually HAPPENS to
> intersect with the taste of other goths.

Oh, like coincidence? They didn't start listening to the music because other goths
HAPPENED to listen to it? I used to see all the time when bands would go in and out
of fashion with goths and industrial dorks--"Ooh, :wumpscut: is the greatest...."
then the next week "Oh, :wumpscut:'s too popular, so I don't like it anymore...."
because they have more than five fans or someone they don't like likes it, thus,
making it uncool.

>
> So... Just so long as we're justifying our existences... Who the hell is
> Rob, and what the hell has he done, other than being an asshole?

Who the hell are you besides a typical, whiny, crybaby goth who can't take a little
criticism of his "scene"? If you're over, say, 24 and you're taking this whole
thing seriously, about your scene and people talking shit about it, I suggest you
might grow up and find your own identity, as apparently most people around here
have done already.

I don't know Rob very well. In fact, besides on this list, I've probably never
communicated with him, but I've heard enough about him through Amy that I believe
he isn't an asshole and is just sick of a lot of pretentious bullshit, which you've
made a glowing example of in your pissboy crybaby non-rebuttals.

--Mike, who is pretty convinced that the only good thing to ever come out of
Austin, Texas, was The Jesus Lizard...okay, Scratch Acid, too."

And last but not least came some words from one who wishes to remain anonymous:

"I'm going to try and give this a shot -- bear with me --
it's longish and may not be up to par with the other posts.

Some people on this list have met and known me before but I'm
aware there are a few folks out there who still are a part of
the scene & subculture relating Goth.  ---

I'm 35, and have been invovlved with the scene on and off since
the late 80's to the present -- I grew up on a steady diet of
Bauhaus, Siouxie and the Banshees, Depeche Mode, The The, Killing
Joke, Cure, Smiths, Residents, Ministry, and Front242. During the
90's it grew to ThrillKillKult, Breeders, Switchblade Symphony,
Sunshine Blind, LICTD, Das Ich, Chainsuck, Portishead, Type O
Negative ---and more bands i can't list at the moment.

I started clubbing during the 80s-90s, hanging out at Dreamerz, Batteries
Not Included, Berlin, Avalon, Neo, Exit, and Club 950. I never stepped in
Medusas until they moved it to the Congress Theatre years ago.

I've also traveled to a few cities(Boston, Los Angeles, St.Louis, and
Toronto) and have been to a few clubs there.

During a Switchbade Symphony show on New Year's Eve 95/96, I met a woman
named GothPat who told about a coffee-meet and a local email list. Through
that list, and hanging out more with the folks I met, supporting local
bands, and eventually began to grow and explore other subdivisions within
the scene-subculture context. I learned I had a few fetishes myself and had
caught the latex-pvc craving. I attended Convergence 2 in Boston which
further expanded diversity within the scene both locally and nationally. A
lot of the folks I made friends were diverse and had their own opinions of
what they thought goth was. I had a few opinions myself which conflicted
with a few other folks, some whom i consider to be hard-liners despite being
proved otherwise.

I dropped off the list(s) I was subbed to, and stopped hanging out due to a
few simple facts that still stand true today:

1) cliques don't change - they either multiply or grow smaller.
2) personal opinions are worth shit unless you have a certain status in the
   scene/subculture.
3) new bands/groups/opinions will always fall under criticism no matter what
age/race/etc. they might be
4) this only applies to certain people I've briefly dated -- if you're not
in a band, scratch out any long-term possibilites --
5) dumbing yourself down to a certain level is only cannon-fodder for others
   to degrade you on

Facts that I've broken/lived by-- 1),3), and 5)

As to what I think Goth is? It's a state of mind I take when I look into the
night sky, when I walk down a dark alley/street, when I listen to the
distant echoes coming from the highway -- it's a certain feeling and
philosophy that embraces a dark Romanticism and Glamour that challenges what
others think and judge about the subject.

I can't say I know-it-all, but I also can't say I despise Goth from here on
end. I still love campy horror flicks, hanging out in graveyards, hearing
new Goth bands, and on rare occasions -- dressing up (well--just dressed in
black :P). But you see someone eating a cheeseburger while wearing plastic
fangs (as one person whom i talked to was an eyewitness to), i have to draw
a line between bullshit and common sense.

I've had to grow up under certain harsh circumstances that I can't go into
here due to personal reasons. The end reults have shown me that I do friends
out there that care less if I'm Goth not Goth, and have been able to keep an
open mind -----

I'm open to any opinions privately and public. This is just my perspective
over the years that I've been witness to.

I'm not some great philosopher/hipster who knows it all but there's a
certain level where you still see the same shit over and over."

So there ya have it. The tales of Timmy the goth. It's a shame he unsubbed. You may notice that I didn't protect his identity the way I did the person from the tobacco debate...that's because said person bowed out gracefully. Timmy went off and unsubbed in that "Im going to take my toys and go home" way.  I have no respect for that whatsoever. Therefore he gets to be publicly mocked....

 pontifications